105) How to Go From an Employee to Freedom-Focused Digital Nomad

Today I sit down with my friend and entrepreneur Phoebe Kuhn- a marketing genius and seasoned digital nomad who’s been living and working around the globe for over six years. So, you maybe listening to this episode from your car on the way to work and listening to us record this from Bali as two digital nomads wondering- okay I want that lifestyle, but how? 

Well today, Phoebe explains the Four Quadrants of Success from Employee to a freedom focused business owner. We also dive into how you can stop trading your time for money and gain true freedom in your life through entrepreneurship. 

We dive into:

• Phoebe's journey from running a personal brand to stepping into a remote CMO role for a multi-seven-figure company in Dubai.
• The raw truth about being a digital nomad (and why your environment can make or break your success).
• The Four Quadrants of Success (Employee, Self-Employed, Entrepreneur, Investor) — and how each step moves you closer to true freedom.
• How to go from Employee to Freedom-Focused Digital Nomad — the mindset shifts, belief work, and practical actions that help you escape the 9-5 system.
• Why building a personal brand can open doors you never even knew existed.
• How Berlin vs. Bali shaped Phoebe's perspective on money, community, and creativity.

If you’ve been dreaming about remote work, craving the digital nomad lifestyle, or wondering how people actually get paid to travel, I'm excited that you landed on this episode.

Where to find Phoebe:
Follow her on Instagram: @phoebekuhn

Chapters

• 0:00 Trading Time for Money
• 1:50 Meeting Phoebe Kuhn
• 2:02 Transitioning from Course Business
• 8:41 Personal Brand vs Business Entity
• 14:15 The Cashflow Quadrant
• 22:57 Berlin's Creative Scene
• 29:18 Bali's Entrepreneur Ecosystem
• 40:36 Dating as an Entrepreneur
• 51:03 Steps to Enter Entrepreneurship
• 59:50 Episode Closing

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

When you're an employee, you are trading time for money right, and time is the most valuable asset that we have at the end of your life. Most old people were interviewed and at the end, on their deathbed, they said the one thing they wish is that they didn't work so much. They wish that they didn't work so hard, and ultimately, what they're saying here is I wish I didn't give so much of my time away.

Speaker 2: 0:18

Hey there and welcome to the Digital Nomad Life Podcast. I'm your host. Krista, also known as Krista Bella, travels on social media, and I am joined today in this episode with a very special guest, my friend Phoebe Kuhn, who I have had the pleasure of knowing since 2021, when we met in Bali during the pandemic, when, at least for me I was kind of in the early days of my business. Phoebe though damn, I just remember at the beginning of meeting her being like this chick is switched on. She knows her shit so much about entrepreneurship, marketing and all other kinds of really cool topics like human design and maybe even human behavior, psychology, et cetera. So she's just truly a fountain and a wealth of knowledge, and actually the reason why I invited her onto this episode today is because I ran into her at the gym in Bali and I was telling her about a little issue that I'm dealing with, and we ended up talking in this parking lot for like an hour and I was like I need my listeners to hear her perspective just on entrepreneurship, on marketing, on digital nomadism. She's also been a digital nomad for six, seven years. She's a citizen of the world, for sure, and I just can't wait for you to hear all about her story. I know that there's so much value waiting for you, especially if you are someone that is wanting to step into entrepreneurship.

Speaker 2: 1:43

I think we've got a lot of interesting perspectives coming up and, yeah, without further ado, welcome Phoebe. Thanks so much for being here. Thanks for having me. Yeah, okay. So I always like to start off the podcast having people understand where you are at right now in your life, in your career. So if you met someone today and they said, oh, what do you do? What would you tell?

Speaker 1: 2:02

them. I would say that I am coming out of a really big transition. So, as you mentioned, I had a pretty big operating business for a period of about four years where it was like 110%, lots of momentum, and that kind of came to a started to halt towards the end of 2023. And I think part of that was that there were some changes in the coaching industry, the online course and learning industry and I also got really sick. So I happened to move into a house with toxic mold and then I developed some like really gnarly chronic health conditions. So for the last 18 months, I've sort of been in this like semi-sabbatical, extended pivot where I haven't had my full capacity. I lost a lot of drive and a lot of my attention was sort of being redirected in a lot of different places and trying to figure out okay, I'm not going to keep doing what I was doing. What comes next, trial a couple of different things and, yeah, actually one month ago or at the beginning of June, I decided to officially close down my course business to create space for something else to arrive. So that was a decision that I'd been grappling with for a while, but I think I just wasn't fully ready to let go. And then I was like, okay, this is it, we're fully letting go, that is something that is going to be a previous era chapter of life and we're going letting go. That is something that you know is going to be a previous era chapter of life and we're going to start a new chapter.

Speaker 1: 3:29

So I didn't actually expect this, but an opportunity sort of fell into my lap right after I closed down the business. A friend of mine who owns a multi-seven figure wellness company in Dubai, who I'd met through entrepreneurial masterminds and networking events in 2022. She was like hey, you know, are you available? Now? Is now a good time to bring you on board our movement? And basically, you know, what would you want, like for me to get you in? You know, do you want to be head of brand? Do you want to be CMO? I just want you to be on our team. And I was like, okay, like let's talk about it, let's think about it. And it was a conversation that we'd already had a few times over the years, but I was so focused on what I was doing that I wasn't super available.

Speaker 1: 4:13

There was a point in time where I was. This was probably in 2023,. I was really interested in rev share deals. I was really interested in equity. I was starting to do more investing and so I'd invested in two startups, one tech startup and one just like on the ground business here in Bali actually Lighthouse Studios and I was starting to get more involved in real estate, and so the opportunity around equity and sort of having a level of involvement in a business that wasn't a personal brand was really appealing to me. I was like, you know, when I think, when you're a personal brand, as you know, you are the marketer, you're also the manager of the business.

Speaker 1: 4:52

You know, you do the delivery, you do the consulting, you do the coaching. But if you are sick, if you're not in the mood, if you're feeling emotional, if you're having a moment, you know, like if you're a woman and you're bleeding, like if you're having a breakup, then everything is on pause, you know. And so I'm a very emotional being, and whenever I've been emotional, my business has always had to take a break and I've always struggled with consistency. And I mean, you know there are plus sides, right, like, obviously, as a personal brand, you can be really transparent, you can be really vulnerable, and that creates and fosters a really deep resonance and connection with you as a brand. But then you know, you, we, I guess we put these expectations onto ourselves to perform in the same way that a non-personal business would perform and it's like we can't. You know, we're not machines, we're humans and we're soft and we're squishy, and you know, things change and our motivations change, our ideas change, our hearts are tender and I kind of got to a point where I was like I really feel the weight and the burden of everything always on me and my emotions being quite at a whim.

Speaker 1: 5:58

So I really wanted more financial stability by being involved in businesses that, I guess, seemed less dependent on my inspiration, feeling like I'm so inspired to share and show up and write and talk and da-da-da-da.

Speaker 1: 6:13

So I was like, okay, maybe this could be a really good opportunity for where I am in life right now.

Speaker 1: 6:18

I have a couple of creative projects that I've had on the back burner for a while and I've historically struggled to balance my creative work with business, because I think I have such a high value for financial security and to drive something forward Like I want to give whatever I'm focusing on 110% that when I am focusing on business it's like it's really difficult for me to focus on my creative stuff at the same time. So I was like, maybe if I take on this opportunity and it's a fractional CMO role, then I can create a life of stability and balance for this next season and then, ideally, I can, you know, finish my manuscripts, I can finish my documentaries, and then who knows where we'll be at the end of that season. So right now my key themes are routine, structure, stability, balance, and I would love to just finish the things that I've been working on very behind the scenes and then see what emerges when I can bring those things out into the world in a different way.

Speaker 2: 7:21

Wow, okay, thanks for all the context in that Hearing you go through how you ended up in this fractional CMO role for a company in Dubai and, just for everybody listening, we are in Bali, so this role is completely remote, correct. Great Okay, amazing. I am not surprised whatsoever that you got poached by someone to be a marketing person. The way that she was like, I don't care what it is that you want to do, I just want your vibe, I just want your energy, I want your genius Because, yeah, as I mentioned in the intro, just yeah, I've always seen you as a marketing master. So, again, not surprised, but I love that. You were, yeah, really weighing your options and tuning into what you valued the most. So, what you said about financial security, etc. And, yeah, I can't wait to get into your story all about how you went from a personal brand into choosing something that is maybe less, yeah, dependent on your energy.

Speaker 2: 8:21

So I think the question that I want to ask right now is so there are a lot of people that will be listening to this, that are new to entrepreneurship. So, about the personal brand perspective that you now have, do you regret anything about the personal brand that you built, which, by the way, your personal brand is still pretty active. Like people can go onto your Instagram and it's incredibly entertaining to watch her life unfold. She's super vulnerable on there and just like says it all. So, yeah, love following along. But I guess your personal brand is not selling anything like in the way that it used to be, which was, as you said, courses, coaching programs, et cetera. So there will be new entrepreneurs that want to be aspiring entrepreneurs in the listener base now, and what would you tell them about the concept of a personal brand?

Speaker 1: 9:15

So this is actually interesting because I had a mentor when I was working in advertising in corporate many years ago and he was a strategist at like the biggest media agencies, like initiative and interactive brands, and so I went to a talk that he did on viral content strategy and I was like, can you mentor me? And we started going on coffee dates and I just like ask him you know, how do you become this like world renowned strategist you know, at like IPG media brands, like you know?

Speaker 2: 9:49

how do?

Speaker 1: 9:49

you have all of these like followers on LinkedIn. And he was like here's my advice build a personal brand. I was like, probably 23, 24. And I just didn't really know what that meant. I was like, how do you do that? What do you mean? And I think within a corporate context it is very different to how we now perceive it, where we're looking at more of our kind of millennial, even Gen X, gen Z, tiktok, instagram kind of personal brand. But the fundamental principles are the same. And if I had not built the brand that I had, you know that opportunity for the remote role in Dubai wouldn't have fallen in my lap the way that it did. I mean, I didn't create, I didn't interview, I didn't, you know, apply. It just kind of presented itself and, like one of my friends sort of reminded me, this is an opportunity that a lot of people would dream of.

Speaker 2: 10:41

And you know you're sitting there being like oh, I don't know, yeah, so true, so true, yeah.

Speaker 1: 10:46

And I think these types of things can become very common as you do build that brand right. So I think, regardless of what you want to do or where you want to end up, writing content about what your experience is and where your knowledge base is and publishing that content on whatever platforms are relevant for you whether that is LinkedIn, whether it is Instagram or Facebook or TikTok or Substack that can only ever benefit you in the long term. And the sooner you start, the sooner you will have people reading your writing and then starting to think of you and making that association right. So it's like I published content years ago that people still have the association now. It's really funny.

Speaker 1: 11:29

I moved into. I came back to Bali a week ago and moved in with a friend and his housemate and I'd never met his housemate, ben. But when I moved in, you know, I sort of mentioned something. We were talking about ads and Ben was like, oh no, I've seen your ads and I was like, oh, he's like I know who you are. And I was like, oh really, okay.

Speaker 1: 11:50

So even years ago I'm obviously I haven't published anything in like a little while, but from whatever it was that I was publishing, let's say three years ago, that had such a big reach that you know, yeah, I will still, you know, get invited to parties, or people will know who I am and they will have that association, like Phoebe creates good carousels or Phoebe knows advertising, phoebe knows this, and so then you will have this recall. So, whatever it is that you want to be known for, whatever you want to be remembered for, whatever you want to be invited into, there are always going to be more and more opportunities the more you publish and show people what you know, you know what I mean, and if people, if you're, not publishing stuff.

Speaker 2: 12:30

how are people going to know what you know? How are they going to know that you even exist, exactly Right. Otherwise, you're going to end up probably blasting out a bunch of resumes. And I think, even if you are blasting out a bunch of resumes, if you are in that situation still having a personal brand, it's going to be the thing that helps you stand out completely above the rest.

Speaker 1: 12:45

And I think you know we live in a very different age now where people make hiring decisions based on influence account, based on follow account, because the value that you bring to any organization or any environment is so much how much audience you have and how many people you can also bring to the table that you have influenced or are able to can also bring to the table that you have influenced or are able to influence. You know like it's such a big part of value exchange in today's economy, like the entire publishing industry has changed, the entire film industry has changed. People hire people based on the amount of influence they have. So true.

Speaker 2: 13:21

Okay, this is so valuable for the listeners actually, I think, especially the people that are thinking about stepping into entrepreneurship. So, if you have been thinking about it, this is your sign Start your personal brand, even if you don't have anything to sell. So, phoebe, you're still continuing on your personal brand, it seems, even though before we got onto this podcast, I was like is there anything you want to pitch? At the end, and you're like I got nothing to sell, but you're still doing your personal brand. And I love what you said about you know you get invited to parties, like people know who you are. It's just opportunities end up coming your way and I think that is so important for also people that are listening that are looking into the future of their entrepreneurship experience.

Speaker 2: 14:06

So this is a concept that I came up with that I speak about on my podcast sometimes, but it's called the entrepreneur jungle gym. So when you're in corporate, you're climbing the ladder and you're just going straight up, rung after rung after rung, and someone else has decided this orderly way for you to grow in your career and if you want to pivot, you're falling off that ladder and you might end up all the way back down on the bottom rung, just on a different ladder. But when you're an entrepreneur, if you step onto this jungle gym, it's like you could swing actually to a completely other part of it, but you're still leveraged in whatever space that is at.

Speaker 1: 14:44

That's really genius. I really love that concept and it's very true. One of my friends said something that really echoes this sentiment to me. When I decided to close down the business and I was sort of grappling with the decision, he was like listen, right now your goal is creative output. You know like you want to write, you want to film make, and he's like you can take this remote role and that doesn't make you any less of an entrepreneur, because entrepreneur is an identity, it's who you are and it's a series of skills and it's also a lot of like, resilience and mindset that you've cultivated. That doesn't just disappear. Whether you are actively choosing to engage in that in a context is irrelevant. He's like if you want to start another business, that's always going to be available for you at any point in the future. And I was like, oh, that's really true. Actually, I've got so many other business ideas that I could engage in later on. And he's like you'll never stop being an entrepreneur because once you become one, it's who you are.

Speaker 2: 15:41

Oh my gosh, I have full body goosebumps and I like kind of want to cry. That is so beautiful and it's so true. I talk about that a lot to my clients, which, by the way, I will just interject a little bit about my business at this moment. If you're listening and it's your first time here, I didn't introduce myself, but I do have a business called the Digital Nomad Life Academy where I help people start their very first online businesses. So if you're interested in becoming a digital nomad, or if you just want to have freedom to work for yourself and become an entrepreneur, check out the Digital Nomad Life Academy, dnla. So back to you, phoebe.

Speaker 2: 16:17

On that note, what I tell my clients a lot in the DNLA is this other concept that I came up with a business bridge. So the first business that you create teaches you how to create a business, and then, once you know how to create a business, you know how to create a business, and then you are suddenly free to be a serial entrepreneur and I just I love, love, love what you said so much about how you don't need to always be running a business in order to be an entrepreneur. It is a mindset, it is an identity. So how would you describe what the identity of an entrepreneur is? I know that you're really passionate about psychology and mindset work and you always have interesting perspectives on that, so how would you define someone that is in the identity of an entrepreneur?

Speaker 1: 17:11

So I think the real difference between. So there's this concept by Robert Kiyosaki called the cashflow quadrant, and he basically says that there are four different identity archetypes and you sort of make your way through the archetypes to become financially free or win the game. So I talk about this with a couple of people and I think when you become an entrepreneur, you sort of start to adopt this ideology that life is a game and the you know winning the game is becoming free, and so there's different types of freedom and there's different levels of freedom. And you know, you, I guess, like going through this is fun, it gives you a sense of meaning, you know you're playing to win and the more you unlock, the more you feel like oh my God, I'm unlocking new levels of the game right yeah.

Speaker 1: 17:54

And so I think one of the first things that you sort of aspire for is like can I have location freedom? You know, like, can I, or can I have a little bit more freedom over and a bit more autonomy over my schedule? You know, like, can I have a little bit more freedom over and a bit more autonomy over my schedule? You know, something that really irked me when I was in corporate was just like people would just watch the clock. You know like they would watch me at my desk and be like, oh, you had a really long lunch break. It's like, you know, you come in five to 10 minutes late and they're like oh, you know you're a bit late, and it's like, yeah, but how many hours of my life am I giving you? How much overtime am I doing? Are you measuring my overtime? Because you're measuring 10 minutes, like come on.

Speaker 2: 18:27

I literally had to sign in to my last job and I was always late, because I'm just that kind of person. I don't know, I have ADHD, what are you going to do? And I couldn't lie about it, because people would have to sign in one by one, by one by one, so they would always see 907. And the fact that I got reprimanded for seven freaking minutes at the beginning of the day. I'm going to stay for probably an extra hour.

Speaker 1: 18:48

Exactly, it's wild, it's silly. So the first identity in the quadrant is employee, and then the second is self-employed, the third is entrepreneur and the fourth is investor. As you make your way through, there is a very specific jump that has to occur in order for you to really get to the next one, and each one has its own set of you know things to it. So I'd say, when you're an employee, you know you don't necessarily control your time. You know you are trading time for money, right? So someone else outside of you dictates your salary, they dictate the amount of hours that you're working and you don't really have much leverage in terms of what you're trading. And time is the most valuable asset that we have. That's what we have. Our life is just a series of time blocks in terms of days, weeks, months, years, right. And I think you know something that a lot of people will see as a sentiment is ah, at the end of your life, you know, most old people were interviewed and at the end, on their deathbed, they said the one thing they wish is that they didn't work so much. They wish that they didn't work so hard, and ultimately, what they're saying here is I wish I didn't give so much of my time away. I wish I had more free time to spend it the way that I wanted living in my value system, building deeper relationships, cultivating more time in community, just actually being alive and living and having a human experience.

Speaker 1: 20:13

So then, when you become self-employed depending on what that looks like you might have more autonomy over your schedule. So you work when you want to work. You could be a contractor, you could be a consultant. You're still trading time for money, but you dictate the price, you dictate the hours. So that is a really big leap that a lot of people can make. And you don't necessarily have to go all the way into entrepreneurship. You can be self-employed and be like, yeah, cool, I'm no longer an employee at this company, I'm now a marketing consultant or I'm now a freelance copywriter or software engineer, and you know I determine my own price. And if I want to work you know, only three days a week I decide that, and I can do that from Thailand or I can do that from Mexico.

Speaker 1: 20:58

So then, as you go from self-employed to entrepreneur, that's then when it's not your time trading, it's you building a series of systems and then the systems make you money. So, learning how to be an entrepreneur is really learning systems, and I think if you listen to any Alex Hermosi content, he will talk a lot about systems, and if you follow any really hardcore entrepreneurial content, it's just like systems. So your team is a system. Your operations, your SOPs are a system. The way that you create and productize value and then deliver that value is a system. Your marketing and sales is a system and ultimately, the game of becoming a great entrepreneur is optimizing each component to then have the greatest output for the least amount of input, and so you graduate from that game when there is very little of your time and energy required and the system basically operates without you. So the aim is for you to become obsolete and making yourself redundant.

Speaker 1: 21:57

So a lot of the mindset that occurs within entrepreneurship where people are navigating that journey from self-employed into entrepreneur and as they get to different levels of entrepreneurship is a really big thing. Our egos need to feel needed and we want to feel needed, and so what's really funny is a lot of entrepreneurs will play this game of trying to become financially free, trying to become time free, and they might end up actually making so much money that they don't need to work again, but then they'll just stay on the hamster wheel and they'll start another business, or they will, you know, always be like, oh, there's always fires and catastrophes and problems that I need to solve. And it's like, yeah, because internally your ego still needs to feel like you are involved in this machine that you've built, and so you unconsciously create familiar problems that you can solve, so that you can feel like valuable, damn.

Speaker 2: 22:49

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 22:50

Graduating from entrepreneurship into investor, where you like are not needed at all, is it's? It's something that very few people can actually do because they're like nah, man, it's I need to feel needed, it's I feel valuable. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 23:01

When you first said that about the quadrants, I was like, oh, do I? Am I ready to graduate into the fourth quadrant? And then I'm kind of like, do I want to Like yeah?

Speaker 1: 23:09

Because here's the thing, right, is that like when you face that, you face this very deep existential process where you have to then redefine meaning. And that is an extremely confronting process, because when you are, I think the inherent meaning that we all adopt, just through conditioned societal programming, is survive, right? So it's like, okay, I need to survive. How much money do I need to survive? How do I take care of my basic needs, of eating, shelter, I need some kind of relationships and friendships, all of the Maslow's hierarchy, right. And then you get really good at being able to provide for yourself or maybe provide for others. And then, when you master the ability to provide and create value, if you take that away, you then have no meaning. And so you're confronted with what is my purpose and why am I alive, right? Oh, my God, these are really big questions around existence, and so, psychologically, whenever you lose something like that, you need to replace it, otherwise you'll just revert back. So you need a replacement strategy to replace all of those previous behaviors. You can't just wake up and start surfing and doing yoga and feel the same. You will have a mental breakdown, yeah. So then you need to go and find new meaning, and that new meaning has to have a greater benefit to you than the previous meaning. So, you know, we all have an innate series of you know, biological and psychological needs, like we all, you know, want to feel like we belong somewhere, we want to feel like we're a part of something, we want to feel contribution and significant. So all of these individual needs that we have we then need to replace.

Speaker 1: 24:53

And so, as you become an investor, or if you, you know, graduate from entrepreneurship, where you then have all this time freedom, it's like okay, but what are you going to do with that time? You need an even bigger mission to dedicate yourself to, like I'm going to end global warming or I'm going to end world hunger. It's got to be bigger than the previous one. So, as an entrepreneur, you know like to have a really successful business, for you to wake up out of bed every morning and be excited, you need a big mission, otherwise you're just motivated by money. So you need more than that. And then, if you want to go to the next level, I think you need even bigger again. It's got to be like a global, impactful mission, otherwise you won't.

Speaker 2: 25:30

Wow, it sounds like, from the way that you talked, you've rubbed shoulders with a lot of people that are in this-. Playing those? Yeah, like playing with big numbers and are in that maybe fourth quadrant. Yeah, have you seen anybody? Or are there any examples that you have about people that have redefined their why?

Speaker 1: 26:00

I think there are a couple of philanthropists. I don't personally know anyone in my media network, but I've definitely been to events where I've heard people talk and it would be like someone that I know knows someone that maybe is in that category of people who, once they've built a few businesses, sold them Actually. Do you know who's in that category? Do you know Dave that owns the Astana?

Speaker 2: 26:21

Oh, I don't know him, but I know about the Astana.

Speaker 1: 26:23

Okay, yeah, so I think he's a really good example of someone who-.

Speaker 2: 26:27

I was thinking about Nuwanu. Have you been to Nuwanu in Bali? No, where is it? Oh my gosh, you have to go. It's so cool. It's this like Burning man city. I went there over this past weekend, if you saw my stories. But the story is, some Russian oligarch was inspired by Burning man as many people are and he built this like whole huge city with all this wild art and they host these huge events where there's all this wild art, and they host these huge events, like it's called.

Speaker 2: 26:51

If anybody listening, if you're coming to Bali, go to this event on the last Saturday of every month, called it's on the last Saturday of every month, they open up the whole park of Nuwanyu and it's like free to go and there's so many things going on and I just I'm there and I'm just like how much money would this place cost? There's no way that it could be profitable. Udara, I feel, is like that as well, this other place in Bali that's like the design is so intricate and like unnecessarily flamboyant that it's like why would you do this? So anyway, maybe there are people that are in that category that just they have a lot of money they want to give back, they want to create.

Speaker 1: 27:33

Yeah, they have a lot of money they want to give back. They want to create yeah, they do. I think this is actually quite common in the burner community, like I've heard a lot of stories of people like the Burning man elite, but then they go and create these, you know, communities and these things that are just not-for-profit art projects or something that they can kind of dedicate energy and time to.

Speaker 1: 27:47

So yeah, I mean I think with Dave like his mission is to get the world meditating and I mean he's got such a wild big vision about creating other Astanas all around the world and it's not to be a profit center, it's to create a safe space, if you know, things hit the fan that people can go to and kind of, you know, be a part of a new world order. So I mean he's literally like it's like new world, you know positive, like Aquarian Age leadership type of vision that he has Beautiful, very stewarding.

Speaker 2: 28:20

Yeah, cool. If anybody is listening and you've never been to Bali, there's a cool more than cool spa center in Uluwatu called the Astana. So go check it out. You do have to reserve spots in advance because it fills up a lot.

Speaker 2: 28:35

But anyway, I want to shift the subject a little bit, a bit of a segue. So you said the phrase new world order and I'm familiar with that phrase. I think a lot of people, maybe people who are listening, are. But one thing that is a mission for me of this podcast is to draw attention to the fact that the way that the world is running, the kind of societal expectations that are put upon us at birth, that somehow everybody seems to just blindly subscribe to. Well, I think the people that listen to this podcast, they're a little bit awake to the fact that it's like this and they have a bit of discomfort about it. But I like to draw attention to the fact that that way that people are living it doesn't really have to be that way or there is another way, and to draw attention to the fact that the way that people are living it's just not very cool. So the segue is for the listeners.

Speaker 2: 29:31

Like I was telling you, phoebe and I had a long conversation just in the parking lot the other day and she was telling me about her journey of living in Berlin for the past about a year. Right, and just some things that you witnessed and the contrast that you experienced of witnessing the culture and society there in the quote West, versus living in Bali or other entrepreneurship communities around the world that you've been traveling to. So could you tell us a little bit about, first of all, what you were doing before your Berlin chapter, why you went there and then how it turned out?

Speaker 1: 30:11

Yeah, so I was living in Bali as a base for probably about two, two and a half years and then, throughout 2022, 2023, I was just traveling full time. So I had no base. I had everything. I had lived with me all the time and I was spending a lot more time in the US, going to more events and spending more time in Europe. Then I had a couple of different things that shifted me. I went back to Australia for a little bit in 2024.

Speaker 1: 30:42

I had an opportunity in Lisbon that then brought me to Europe for a little bit and that didn't pan out the way that I thought it would and I was like well, I don't want to stay in Lisbon, so where can I go to just sort of settle down ground? And the options were like Barcelona or Berlin, which is just where I had close friends. And I had this kind of moment where I was in Berlin a week prior that summer visiting one of my best friends. It was her birthday and there was a Shibari show with the world's best rigger, hajime Kaneko. And so you know I'm also really into exploration of sexuality and understanding how that gets expressed, and I went on a whole sexuality journey. So I was also really intrigued by how shibari is both something that is used in BDSM but also as an art form, and I think that, like, konoko is just such an incredible rope artist and he works with this woman, marie Savoie, who is an also incredible rope artist, and they have very different styles, and so I really wanted to be a part of that show. I kind of put my hand up and volunteered to be an assistant and help build this live installation in front of 200 people.

Speaker 1: 31:50

It was in Berlin, and I kind of had this moment where I was on the stage holding rope, you know, holding ladders, there was live techno music blaring through the speakers, world's best, like shibari artists and I'm standing there with them. And I sort of had this moment where I was like how did this happen? Like how did I even get here? This is wild, you know, I don't even have. It's not like I've studied rope for many years or anything. I'm not even in the community, I just have some loose connections through people. And suddenly I'm here in Berlin and this is such an electric feeling Wow, spend some time here, I could do some really cool stuff, some cool creative stuff, and I just had this feeling like, you know I belong here, you know, if not forever, like for a period of time, and there is an artist part of me that really wanted to come alive and feel expressed. So I went to Berlin with the intention of being near one of my best friends and to play in that realm to see what I could create there.

Speaker 1: 32:51

So Berlin, for anyone who maybe is unfamiliar, is probably one of the most creative cities in the world, definitely in Europe. It has a very specific texture, though. I think Berlin is a really great place. If you are a musician, if you're a DJ, you want to learn how to produce music, create beats, learn how to play, and you want acts, if you like house music, electronic music, techno, it's probably undoubtedly an unparalleled music scene, agreed.

Speaker 1: 33:21

The second thing that I think Berlin does really well is open relating and sexuality and expressions of different kink and fetishes. So I think if you're someone that is quite curious about leaning into that aspect of yourself, like definitely that is one of the top five cities in the world for you to explore and have very unique sexuality experiences. And so that was a period of life that I was in like I would say 2023, 2024, that was a really big part of my life and so that felt really in alignment. And then, yeah, music, art, sexuality I think those are the three things that Berlin does really well and a lot of the time people will be like why would you move to Berlin? Or like why would you be in Berlin? And when you have one of each of those three experiences and you have a good experience, like you go to a really good rave, yeah, you know, you go to a really good art thing, you have a really good sexuality experience You're like, oh, I get it, I totally get why people would be here.

Speaker 1: 34:13

So I had my time there and you know, I had a couple of different friends in different pockets, so I built some friends. I had some friends in the music scene who were sound engineers and DJs, had some friends in the art scene and really only one friend that was an entrepreneur. And so, as much as I tried to find other entrepreneurs there, I really struggled. And I mean, I am very good at meeting people. I'm quite a social person. Obviously, when you've been a digital nomad for quite some time, you have strategies to meet people, right, you go to events. You ask your other entrepreneurial friends like, hey, who do you know in this city, and I really struggled to build and find entrepreneurial community in Berlin. And then, through the circles that I did have and the network that I was building, I learned a lot about the culture in Germany and how the laws are regulated, how the tax system is regulated, and they don't encourage a culture of entrepreneurship because Germany is very, very socialist in its political ideology.

Speaker 1: 35:12

It's basically the opposite of the US you know which is very individualist and promotes autonomy and promotes, you know, people doing their own thing. Right, like the American dream is. You know? I mean, what would you say the American dream is? I guess it's change.

Speaker 2: 35:28

It's freedom. Don't ask me about the American dream. I'm like bye, Sorry to anybody that's in the United States.

Speaker 1: 35:35

I think it's like become a millionaire and, like you know, have some kind of brand.

Speaker 2: 35:39

Sure it is true, like I. Definitely one of the things that I appreciate a lot about being American is and I get this reflected to me a lot from non-Americans, reflected to me a lot from non-Americans they're like, oh wow, people that are American are so like down to just have a public brand or, you know, put themselves out there or try things. And in a lot of other cultures I think specifically Australia there's this like tall puppy syndrome that people say like you've got to. If you're standing taller than the rest, we got to cut you down, whereas in the United States you are celebrated for your individualism and for your growth. Yeah, yes.

Speaker 1: 36:15

Yeah. So there's kind of a similar sense in Germany, where people want everyone to be the same. You know and that's part of the beauty of you know what is a positive of what Marx tried to kind of put forward in his ideology many years ago. So you know, I think with any ideology you have your pros and your cons.

Speaker 1: 36:36

And I think you know one of the great things that Germany has is that they have free healthcare, they have free education. Like, for example, one of my friends is doing her master's. She's not even German, she's Finnish and she's been studying in Germany for free, getting a free education on on, like feminist something or other. Like she's so grateful to have that system working for her. And on the downside, you know some of my friends that, yeah, they have their free healthcare but the wait time is so long that one of my friends was telling me for her to get an appointment with a therapist was six months. So the mental health care system, even though it's accessible, it's actually not that accessible because of the wait times.

Speaker 1: 37:20

And then, in terms of the amount of money that they're making, their salaries are so small. Yeah, the cost of living is a little bit lower than it would be in probably some of the biggest cities in the US or Australia and New Zealand, for example, but they don't have much money left over at the end of the month and most people that I was meeting and spending time with were struggling quite a bit really. And when you are walking around the streets, you see a lot of disability. You see a lot of disability. You see a lot of homelessness. There is a crisis and it's really confronting, and I think that when you're in Bali, you're very sheltered from seeing a lot of the harshness that is present in different parts of the world that are faced with a lot of economic challenge and turmoil.

Speaker 2: 38:10

Yeah, so you witnessed a lot of this when you were in Berlin and how did that affect, I guess, your mentality and your mindset around maybe, entrepreneurship, about what the reality is for a lot of?

Speaker 1: 38:26

people, and one of the things that I will regularly say to people is, like, whatever it is that you want to cultivate, find the place in the world where that is the dominant energy and go to that place and you will just like osmosis, you will become that thing, you will thrive Absolutely. So like, yeah, if you want to be an artist, if you want to be a DJ, like, go to Berlin you'll become a DJ in like six months.

Speaker 1: 38:53

You know like, if you want to be a filmmaker, move to LA Like you want to be an actor. So where is the culture of the thing? And something that I really observed is that my money mindset and my sense of entrepreneurship really diminished. Wow, during that year. It was absolutely like my lowest financial year in business. My whole sense of self and I think you know like the way that I perceive myself, completely changed.

Speaker 1: 39:22

It was deeply, deeply humbling, and I also noticed that I stopped sharing and posting as much, because in Germany they have like a really high value for privacy and it's kind of looked down upon a little bit if you are someone that creates content. It's, for example, in a lot of the clubs most of the clubs you are not allowed to have your phone to take photos or videos or anything, which is a great part of the club culture and it's what people love about it, because you're present, um, so any club you go into, you have to put stickers on the cameras, but then you just get in the habit of not sharing anything, and so I noticed that like I'm just not posting content, I was not sending emails and you know, obviously that affects my business right, because I'm not showing up and I even I noticed that even like immediately coming back to bali, you know, I was like posting every day again.

Speaker 1: 40:08

I was like, oh, I didn't even have to think about it. It's just like normal here that you see people constantly posting, but in germany it's weird, you know, you know, people just really value their privacy.

Speaker 1: 40:17

So I think there are things like that where I had a friend who was trying to get a.

Speaker 1: 40:22

She was trying to get a self-employment sort of you know, a freelance design business off the ground and she had a year where she was receiving payouts from being made redundant and at the end of that year she couldn't do it and she then had to go back job hunting again. And when I finally moved to Berlin and I saw what the environment was like, I said to her hey, listen, you really should not feel bad that you couldn't get this off the ground in a year, because I don't think I could have done it in a year if I was here in this environment. And I think the only reason why I got where I was was because I came to Bali when I did, because I can tell you that I was in Australia, in Melbourne, which is where I'm from, and it probably, yeah, it was about one year, from July 2018 to August of 2019, where I really struggled to get things off the ground, and it was only once I'd moved here to Bali that my business took off and everything was flourishing and thriving.

Speaker 2: 41:18

Environment makes such a big impact, for sure. I mean it even comes down to is your desk set up for you to be comfortable and can you sit there all day? Yeah, what do you think it is specifically about Bali?

Speaker 1: 41:32

It's the access to people who are doing what you want to be doing right. So Bali is probably one of the biggest expat hubs in the world. The just pure density of people who are working remotely here, the people who are entrepreneurs here, and the range of people that you can meet. I mean I know people here who they've retired fully, financially free and they you know a lot of people do come here to retire because the lifestyle is so good. You have people who are in the crypto space. You have people who are marketers. You have people who are influencers Like you could meet.

Speaker 1: 42:07

There's a lot of travel content creators here, like you know, models like so many different industries and different pockets of the internet, but everyone comes to Bali. You know what I mean. People come because they're attracted to the healing and the spiritual side of what the island has to offer. People come because they want to go surfing every day. People come because they want the lifestyle. But really, I mean I've met most of my friends here. I've met so many incredible people that I've had really long connections with and it's really, I think, a place that you could kind of meet someone anywhere, like you could meet someone on the beach, you could meet someone in a co-working space, whereas I think, for example, somewhere like LA or New York, you can meet really phenomenal people who are doing really cool things.

Speaker 1: 42:54

But you sort of need the invitation to that access you know, like you couldn't just meet someone at the gym, right, you would. Everything's very privatized in that sort of way. It's very like okay, well, how do I get into this elite gym to then meet those people? How do I get into so, her house or something?

Speaker 1: 43:11

I don't know, that's gated yeah whereas bali is just kind of it feels very decentralized, non-hierarchical in that way. It's just like if you're here you could meet anyone, Like I remember we went to a brunch at a friend of a friend's place one day and it's like I met this guy. I matched with this guy on Tinder, oh yeah.

Speaker 1: 43:32

And he was like a full financially free, multi-multi-millionaire that also. And he was like a full, you know, financially free multi, multi-millionaire that also you. Then he was dedicating his whole life to like this travel company. Yeah, but it's not even. I don't know if it's a company, I don't know if he even makes money, but he just like, has this whole travel media empire yeah that he does out of pure passion, and so it's like you know you could match with someone on tinder.

Speaker 1: 43:50

And then, you know, meet someone who's like operating at a level where they're just having yacht parties every few months, inviting people to the yacht parties, right, and then they're inviting people to their villa for Sunday brunch. That they do once a month and there are two pools. It's like-.

Speaker 2: 44:02

Yeah, so true, that was a cool day.

Speaker 2: 44:05

We won't get into the story about that day, but yeah it was a good day, wow, okay, so I totally agree what you said. I mean, I love living in Bali. I've been here for over five years now and I just I really can't think of anywhere else. I'd rather be. And I feel like I already looked all around the world and checked, like I like Same, went to all these other places, and other places are great. There's so many other places in the world that I love and adore, but something about Bali just is like it's so good, it's so easy.

Speaker 1: 44:36

Yeah, life is easy mode here.

Speaker 2: 44:38

Yeah, but that being said, you already know you're here for a limited time, right? So can you tell me a bit more about how the environment of Bali might not be fully conducive to what you are looking to call into your life or what you're-?

Speaker 1: 44:52

Yeah, this is really funny. So this actually, I might have changed my mind about this within the last like 48 to 72 hours.

Speaker 1: 45:00

Okay, love it, tell me. Uh, the reason why I kept leaving Bali is because I believed that the dating here was really awful and I was like you know, I'm not going to meet my husband here and I'm looking for a partner. And so, as partnership became more of a priority for me, I was really prioritizing being in cities where I thought I would meet someone that was really values aligned. And so and that was hence the two years of constant traveling because I was like, well, you know, if I'm going to these events where I'm meeting other entrepreneurs, like you know, I could meet someone at one of these events, and so I just was like I love living in Bali, but people who've lived here for a long time will always talk about the dating, and I think the reality is life is a paradox and you have to master the balance of both ends of that paradox.

Speaker 1: 45:53

So, yes, a lot of people have very negative dating experiences here where they're like oh, it's so transient, people are always leaving.

Speaker 1: 46:00

Or people here are non-committal, people have Peter Pan syndrome. Men are really avoided, they're only looking for short-term things, da-da-da-da-da. Or also, you hold the belief that, wherever you are in the world, as long as you are a frequency match for the thing that it is that you desire, it's going to happen inevitably, regardless of where you are, because you're a match for it. So you're always going to attract into your experience what you're available for, what you're a match for, and that should exceed the perceived limitations in your environment, right? So it's like I'm looking for evidence all the time for the things that I want to materialize, and I can see in Bali that, yes, there are a high volume of people that I know that have really negative dating experiences, and also I know people who have been in long-term relationships that are now having children, and they all met their partners in Bali, and that is, you know, I could count that number of friends on one hand, so proportionately still heavily weighted in the other.

Speaker 2: 47:04

I know a bunch, yeah, so it's like you do know people, right, there are examples that we were like okay, yeah, cool.

Speaker 1: 47:10

I know more than a bunch.

Speaker 2: 47:10

I know a lot of people that met their partners in Bali and they've like made it work and it's long-term and do they stay here for a lot of them move on, a lot of them leave.

Speaker 1: 47:18

Yeah, that's true, so they do go back to their countries.

Speaker 2: 47:21

So maybe a lot of them that met here ended up carrying on to do something else. I know a few examples for sure.

Speaker 1: 47:27

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 47:28

So I mean that was one of the reasons why I kept leaving, because I was like, looking, I wanted to open up the dating pool, yeah, and I actually started a dating program on Monday was like the first call, and so I mentioned that this was a belief that I had and I'm like you know, I'm very open to rewiring that and, like you know, by the one hand, I believe that it is possible, but then, on the one hand, I get a bit cynical.

Speaker 1: 47:49

So, you know, I need to just kind of reinforce that. And it was funny because I actually opened up Hinge for the first time in a little while and I was like noticing that there was actually quite a lot of men on Hinge that were like all looking for something long-term and serious, nice, and people who would, you know, seemed pretty values aligned, and I was like I don't remember this ever being the case and I was just like looking and this ever being the case and it's just like looking at and like had a couple of conversations with people that felt like very intriguing and I was like, huh, that's really interesting, like people, people are here, so who knows? Well, you're here, I'm clearly, I'm here Right, and I'm here, you're here.

Speaker 2: 48:30

We had a whole conversation about this the other day, like had a nice girl chat about just the dating situation and being single as an entrepreneur and how that also can affect your dating life as well, and I really hold the belief that you know, it's about a frequency match and I think, like I don't know, maybe again because I just I traveled so much before I got to Bali that I just I'm like, I'm like la, la, la, la, la la.

Speaker 2: 48:56

Nobody tell me any reason for me not to be here.

Speaker 2: 48:58

I just don't want to hear it Like, I don't want to know, I'm just going to believe the opposite.

Speaker 2: 49:03

But no, I feel like if my values are things that I value, that I think are aligned with living in Bali, I value time, freedom and I value presence, and I think these are two things that are hard to find collectively in other places, like here you can be driving I don't know driving anywhere at three o'clock on a Tuesday and the number of people that you see, like, because you see people that you know as you drive by. Just, if you live here long enough, you always see people that you know and I'm like, oh, live here long enough, you always see people that you know and I'm like, oh, there's so and so, there's so and so, and like people are doing shit out and about monday through friday that do have businesses and they do work, but they're free, like they can go to the spa, they can go to the gym, they can do whatever you can go to the beach, easy to connect with you got have a dog honey.

Speaker 2: 49:55

Anyway, it's so easy to connect with people, yeah, and spend time with people.

Speaker 1: 49:58

I feel like when you are living in a big city, people are so time poor that it is so rare to be able to have the time to see friends. Yeah, the distances that you need to travel a further, totally, you know, and it's all the things that add up right, like you have an eight hour day, then you're cooking, you're cleaning.

Speaker 2: 50:19

And then at the end of that you have to get to the eight hour day. You gotta commute.

Speaker 1: 50:22

Yeah, and then you're tired, yeah, and so then you it's time to sleep, and so then, really, you wait till the weekend to see your friends. But that's how people can start to become really lonely you know, like this, like loneliness epidemic, oh my gosh.

Speaker 1: 50:36

Yes, this human connection scarcity that we're in globally is a result of the way that the system is set up. And you know, I think people build connection at work and their friends are their colleagues. And as an adult, it's hard to make new friends and I can tell you that, since living this life, I have more friends than I could have ever imagined when I was pre-nomad.

Speaker 2: 50:59

Life to go to work, which takes up eight to 10 hours of our day, we do get a bit jaded and unhappy, and so that makes you less motivated to want to go out and like be your most sparkly self where you would attract people. That vibe with you. Like I feel like if I have a really big workday, it takes me a while to recalibrate into life again. Like I'm like either on work brain mode or I'm in socializing mode and you can't just automatically switch like that. So I think just the system that we spoke about before really keeps people in this mode. It makes them less motivated as well to go out and meet people.

Speaker 2: 51:50

But adults still have access to that, which one of the reasons why I'm so excited to go on my big summer trip right now. Like I'm going to Burning man and I feel like that is a place where people are not on their phones, they are present and you can just be with people and enjoy your human experience, which again is another thing that I love about Bali that I'm like whoever my partner ends up being is going to love living, is going to love life. Sure, he'll probably be an entrepreneur too, because those are the kind of people that are here. But like I want to have a wonderful life where I get to admire the sky on a daily basis and feel the sand beneath my toes and make sunset walks with my dog a non-negotiable and like I just feel like it's hard to have that in other places.

Speaker 1: 52:39

Definitely.

Speaker 2: 52:40

All right, well, we are close to the hour, but I want to wrap up by talking about well, phoebe, so you've been through a big journey of your entrepreneurship life and, yeah, you've just acquired so much wisdom about what it's like to step into this role and this mindset.

Speaker 2: 53:03

And before this episode, we talked about who is the common listener or the person that tends to listen to this podcast. So it's someone that a listener, maybe you are this person right now. Maybe you're commuting to work, maybe you are in that system, in that situation where you know you're hearing these two strangers on the internet talk about what it's like to live in Bali and to be an entrepreneur. And, okay, yeah, there are challenges, but, wow, like sounds amazing to have that lifestyle, but something in you might be holding you back from actually stepping into it. So, phoebe, if you could channel this person and if there's anything that you think that they need to hear, or if there's any nuggets of wisdom or encouragement or maybe thought-provoking questions to get them thinking about how to step into their new chapter. Is there anything you would love to share?

Speaker 1: 54:03

I'd say a couple of things. Number one you need to really believe that this is possible for you. This can't just be a dream that is available for other people but not for you. I think a lot of the time when we see people who are doing it, we follow people. What we do is, psychologically, we look for reasons why they are different to us, to then justify why we cannot have that thing. It's like, oh well, of course you know that could be possible for you, but that would not be possible for me, why? So, instead of focusing on all of the reasons why you think you're different from someone, focus on all of the reasons why you're the same. Nice, yeah, I think you will see that you have the same set of fundamental traits within you that maybe you just haven't activated yet, but really, like, we all have the same potential. It's just that some people have made the decision to activate that potential and express it more with continued decision and action. So, yeah, number one is belief. Number two is you need to make the decision, so you need to draw a line in the sand and shift out of that state of I'm desiring to have this, I want to have this, I long to have it into. I'm actually going to do something about this. This is going to happen for me.

Speaker 1: 55:25

Create a deadline for yourself, and for some people the strategy is different than it is for others. Right, for some people they will take a two trains theory approach, where they will then work their job while they build a business on the side. They'll then go down from five days to four days. They'll then ask to go remote, you know, and then, after they've saved up an amount of money or after their business hits certain milestones, then they'll go full time in their business. So that's one approach. You know. Other people will just like quit their jobs and they'll sink or swim, go all in.

Speaker 1: 55:55

So, I think that's a personality thing. I think it depends what kind of personality you have. But regardless, I think you want to make the decision that you are going to do this, that it is happening for you, and you need to kind of decide that there's no going back, and so that's sort of the thing. Right Is that? Psychologically, if you have a plan B and you have a safety net and you're really comfortable, you probably won't move, and so the more comfortable you are in life, the less likely you are to shift and change something. So you need to get uncomfortable.

Speaker 1: 56:27

So how can you change your conditions to get so uncomfortable that the pain and the discomfort then starts to motivate you into action and movement, because comfort creates inertia. So I would sit down and I would probably journal on, like what are the aspects of your current reality that really bother you, that you don't enjoy, that you're like I cannot tolerate this anymore. This is not okay. And then I would do some journaling on what would you like to experience instead, and I would then, as a next step, find people that you have access to that are living the way that you want to live and spend as much time around them as possible to then start to normalize that. This is a way of being. The more you observe it, the more you see it, the more you experience it, the more you will start to believe and reinforce, like, oh, this is possible for me too.

Speaker 1: 57:19

This is something that people do and I have access to it, and so, like we said earlier, one of the fastest ways to sort of fast track that is to go to a different environment where there is a high density of people, and that doesn't mean move to Bali. You could join a co-working space where people you know and there are a lot of events and you meet people who are doing that. It could look like, maybe moving to a different city, but in the same country where there is, you know, more going on event wise. It could even just look like reaching out to a family member or friends that you know that are doing it, and maybe it's having coffee with them once a week, or maybe it's volunteering and kind of being a part of what they're doing, just to be in the energy of it.

Speaker 1: 57:58

You know, so those are the steps that I'd take.

Speaker 2: 58:01

Nice, wow, amazing, amazing advice and I really love your comment on just like going somewhere where the thing that you want to do is normal. I think a big thing I know a big thing that holds a lot of people back is they're worried about criticism or judgment from other people. Something that I end up coaching people through a lot is announcing their business on social media, like I just did a whole coaching session with one of my clients the other day about how to make her LinkedIn post. You know people are like I'm excited to announce that, I'm da-da-da, whatever. So people have no problem doing that when it's corporate, when they're going to a new role.

Speaker 2: 58:39

But it's like if you're announcing your own business, suddenly you feel all the eyes of your old colleagues on you and that can be really, really overwhelming, I think, for people and can even stop them in their tracks. But if you are around a community of other people, that's like just do it. Oh, yeah, I did that. Oh, it's fine. Like whatever, we're gonna support you and are able to actually share with you why it's, or help just coach you through the actual moments, because it's normal to them to do something like that. You're gonna start making it, it's gonna feel normal to you too, and then the resistance won't be there, and when there's no resistance, you just get to move forward freely. Yeah, so amazing advice, love that. Yeah, phoebe, thank you so much for being here and imparting all your wisdom onto the listeners. If people want to find you, discover you, follow you, how can?

Speaker 1: 59:35

they do that. The best way is to just follow me on Instagram. My handle is at Phoebe Coon.

Speaker 2: 59:41

Amazing, and I am Christabella Travels on Instagram. You can always feel free to message me anytime. Let me know that you heard this episode. Let me know if you're curious about the Digital Nomad Life Academy. Let me know if you want to change your life or just talk about how you can, you know, even take the first step forward towards becoming more free. So thank you so much for listening to the Digital Nomad Life Podcast. Phoebe, thanks again for being here and we'll see you all in the next episode. Bye.